Saturday, April 21, 2012

TOP REASONS FOR LAY GOVERNANCE: #1


Ed. Note: Pistrina concludes its series on the compelling reasons for lay governance.

The single most important reason for firmly securing traditional chapels in the hands of the bill-paying laity is this: A constellation of doubts looms over many Traddie clergy, which augurs ill for an overly trusting laity.  The doubts run the gamut from the unlikely (Liénart's withholding of intention) to the certain (the fitness of these men for the Catholic priesthood). We are unsure of everything about them -- their background, their vocation, and their zeal for the faithful.  No matter how benign some of these priests and prelates appear on the surface, it's unwise to assume they are remotely like the clergy some of us knew in the days before the crisis. Why, nowadays, the laity can't even observe Reagan's famous catchphrase, "Trust but verify," for too much is unknowable until the restored Church speaks.

Let's look at the most salient of these doubts. Pistrina doesn't assert the doubts are positive; that's a matter best left to each person's conscience. Pistrina does affirm, however, that, at a minimum, the many nagging doubts about character, validity, and competence argue for the laity's retaining complete control of the financial and business end of their chapels. Very few public- or private-sector enterprises harboring similar doubts about key associates would allow such people to remain unaccountable to the organization's stakeholders. Likewise, in the Sede Vacante, without an authority to whom they may petition for redress, the laity must guarantee accountability by assuming the burden of governance.

Review the following list, and be sure to add your own doubts. By the time you're finished, you'll be ready to begin the crusade to retake your chapels. The prize is noble: the safeguarding of your investment and the sanctification of your priest, who will finally be free to obey the first law of the Catholic Church -- the salvation of souls.


  • Inferior priestly formation and education. Today's "seminaries" are a mockery of the once rigorous institutions in which priests were educated. The admission standards are far from selective (we only need to mention that recently one Russian seminarian became a Catholic after he matriculated to the pesthouse). We've seen how one completer forgot the consecration, and how another couldn't perform a graveside service, and how another couldn't bless holy water without a spasm of doubts.  We've also seen how these poor souls have invented new mortal sins to scare the laity into compliance. Moreover, on these pages, we've exposed the senior clergy's sham claim to scholarship for the nonsense that it is: they are not scholars, are definitely not theologians, and are light years away from brilliance.
  • Thuc Line.  Whatever your personal opinion is, grave doubts persist in spite of arguments in favor of validity. (The most persuasive and thorough defense of Thuc orders in general came from a layman, not from the clergy!) We'll never really know until the Church one day decides the matter. In the best case, we must admit, Thuc orders, especially through the Carmona sub-lineage, will always be a question of concern.
  • Ordination by One Hand. Putting aside the Thuc question, there is still the problem of "One-Hand" Dan's orders. If he isn't a priest, then he isn't a bishop, and he has therefore not conferred the priesthood on the men he is said to have "ordained." Since the Blunderer's defense has so many scholarly failings, strong doubts will always remain about the validity of orders received from his hands.
  • Obsession with Money and Luxury. Numerous Traddie clergy devote countless hours to feathering their nests and providing themselves with a very comfortable life. Some are even so bold as to recount their vacation adventures in sermons and bulletins. They are always collecting for something, and there's usually no accounting for how the funds were expended. Some insist on staying at high-end hotels and resorts while others wantonly spend on lavish restaurant meals and over-the-top ceremonies. One priest of extremely humble origins once demanded of his parish new living quarters because his decently but simply furnished bedroom was too small; at a meeting of the laity, he angrily called it a "cave" and claimed he was worthy of something much better.
  • Differential Treatment of the Faithful.  One of the most notable features of a traditional chapel is the obvious favoritism that big donors receive -- at least until some of them realize that they're being abused. Deep pockets speak loudly and influence much; the "have-nots" know precisely where they stand in the pecking order. Prohibitions or rules that bind the regular folk are relaxed for families that give the most. In some cases, the big contributors often call the shots as the clergy fawningly tow the line.
  • Religious Coercion. Many of these priests retain power by openly threatening the people with banishment from the sacraments. They behave as though the sacraments were their personal property -- to be administered at their discretion and to be used as a weapon to suppress honest dissent. 
You don't need to be a theologian to sense there is something wrong with such men. There's just too much doubt on every front to trust them completely. Lay governance is the only means to keep hard-earned assets from becoming plunder for clerical freebooters.

10 comments:

  1. Heeere go again!

    "Pistrina doesn't assert the doubts are positive; that's a matter best left to each person's conscience."

    Riiiight, then you go on to openly insinuate grave doubts against the Thuc-Carmona line:

    "Whatever your personal opinion is, grave doubts persist in spite of arguments in favor of validity. (The most persuasive and thorough defense of Thuc orders in general came from a layman, not from the clergy!) We'll never really know until the Church one day decides the matter. In the best case, we must admit, Thuc orders, especially through the Carmona sub-lineage, will always be a question of concern."

    So, is that why you don't frequent the Sacraments? Your allusion to Mario Derksen makes you look even more pathetic, for he has done more scholarly research and work for the benefit of the sedevacantist faithful than you have ever done. This is all the more embarassing because you took it upon yourself to critique and expose the pseudo-scholarship of Cekada.

    "Many of these priests retain power by openly threatening the people with banishment from the sacraments. They behave as though the sacraments were their personal property -- to be administered at their discretion and to be used as a weapon to suppress honest dissent."

    And you're responding to this abuse by debasing the clerics into employees of lay-boards and exerting an analogous coercion and manipulation against them?

    "Review the following list, and be sure to add your own doubts. By the time you're finished, you'll be ready to begin the crusade to retake your chapels. The prize is noble: the safeguarding of your investment and the sanctification of your priest, who will finally be free to obey the first law of the Catholic Church -- the salvation of souls."

    Sooo, you're now the St. Bernard of our times, sent by Divine Providence to preach a Crusade against clerical abuse and incompetence? Sorry, Craig, but it is clear that you do not have the credibility to even attempt such an endeavor.

    You have basically reduced the Chapels into places of meretricious commerce, where concerns monies and investments absorb the soul more than prayer and meditation. What is this, the Synagogue!?

    Did not Christ say to those who were similarly profaning the Temple, "Take these things hence, and make not the house of my Father a house of traffic" (John 2:16)?

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  2. "You don't need to be a theologian to sense there is something wrong with such men. There's just too much doubt on every front to trust them completely. Lay governance is the only means to keep hard-earned assets from becoming plunder for clerical freebooters."

    So this is how the long awaited countdown ends. Can't you see the problematic implications of what you have been proposing, or, rather, of the manner in which you are proposing these things?

    You're too smart, Craig, to play dumb.

    Your solution of "lay governance" does address a serious and undeniable reality, but the manner in which you have formulated it and have implemented it at Fairfield opens Pandora's Box, and hope may escape for the brighter minds who see the bigger picture, the darker picture of what is happening with the sedevacantists.

    There is nothing wrong with lay trustees helping clerics in financial, administrative and fiduciary matters for which they are unprepared. There is, however, something seriously wrong in the way you have proposed such a thing, and you go beyond this.

    Your new by-laws at Fairfield imperil the rights and liberty of ecclesiastical authority in more or less subtle ways, and even explicitly at times. It is not for nothing that people are leaving St. Albert's. Just like they did not like to be bossed around by clerical wannabe Euro-trash, so they don't wish to be the commodities of the white-collar "affluent and intelligent Traddie minority," to which you have been appealing this past year. They are not going to stand for an absurdly tyrannical oligarchy of the "privileged few" after they have endured the Pavlovian mind-control of the likes of Cekada, Sanborn, etc.

    Stop and think for a moment, Craig. What makes you think we can trust these lay people? Just because they went to business school and have a generous income are they to merit our trust? What you say about the clerics can be conversely applied to the lay trustees.

    Here's the thing, Craig: the manner in which you have been selling this "lay governance" business is troubling because you are extolling a bunch of business-savvy geezers with the credibility and authority that the Ecclesia docens alone can demand in conscience from every Catholic individual and community. Essentially, what you are telling us is that you and your lay-board crazed crowd have all the answers, and you alone can guide us in these troubled times.

    How has it come to this, Craig? If what you have been saying is true, then the Church of Christ has failed; then you might as well go to the Synagogue.

    No wonder people are fleeing from the sedevacantist chapels. They see to what absurd theatrics the Church has been reduced by this "sedevacantist movement." On the one hand, we have sociopaths like Sanborn, Cekada, SSPV, etc., brainwashing the dazzled masses; and on the other hand, we have saucy knaves like you who think they can do better just because they have a business degree and assets.

    WAKE UP, CRAIG. YOU HAVE BECOME SANBORN! YOU HAVE DEBASED AND RAVISHED THE CHURCH JUST AS VIOLENTLY AS HE HAS! No, you are worse, because at least Sanborn has valid orders, whereas you have nothing to offer. (But then again you say there are "grave doubts" regarding those orders; oh, yeah, I forgot, but they are not positive!)

    Ultimately the doom of irrelevance and uselessness wherewith you menace the sedevacantist clerics, as if you were some sort of modern day Savaranola, is now to become your fate.

    Oh well...

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  3. A reminder: In the Sede Vacante, there is NO ecclesiastical authority.

    A lesson in polity: Under the lay governance model, the people are protected because they have the power to remove abusive leaders through member-adopted regulations and, ultimately, the ballot box.

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  4. Dear Mr. Toth,

    In order for your readers (as few as they may be) to get a clear
    understanding of you, they must not only “read between the lines” of
    what you have written but they must also know this crucial fact: you
    were a teacher on the faculty at St. Athanasius Seminary who suddenly
    resigned out of the blue. No doubt you gave a very good excuse.

    You have been complaining on and on, months and months, about the
    incompetence, shortcomings, failures and evils of the sedevacantist
    clergy, which is truly a sad and alarming reality. However, you have a
    tendency to over-dramatize and sensationalize things, and this kind of
    yellow journalism is very much so discrediting whatever true facts you
    have to report.

    As a teacher at St. Athanasius Seminary, you were in the key position
    to educate and train future clergy to be competent to be well versed
    in philosophy and theology, to be dynamic orators for the feeding of
    the flock of Christ. Moreover, they would have been prepared to face
    matters regarding temporal finances and administration of goods, with
    your knowledge and expertise in these fields.

    ReplyDelete
  5. They would have been the solution to the problems and deficiencies of
    which you often complain. It would have been your hour to fulfill your
    destiny, to right the wrongs that have been made in the sedevacantist
    movement; to unleash an army more powerful than any on earth for the
    greater glory of God and His holy Church. Recall how the devil
    confessed to St John Marie Vianney that if there were three more
    priests like him all his evil on the world would be undone!

    Perhaps for this you had been predestined by God from all eternity.
    But, alas, instead of toiling in the vineyard of the Lord and helping
    prepare the younger generations to be fit ministers of His Church, you
    resigned. Moreover, you went on to push for “lay governance:” even to
    the point that if there arose a dispute between temporal affairs and
    ecclesiastical matters, it would be the lay board who would decide the
    question over a two-thirds majority vote, according to the by-laws you
    yourself have devised.

    You could have never gotten away with such impious novelties had it
    not been for the scandals and misappropriation on the part of the
    clergy at St. Gertrude the Great, the mediocre formation of the CMRI
    clergy, and the culture of refined arrogance in the face of failure
    and schismatic cult-mentality of Most Holy Trinity Seminary. You are
    like a parasite, a maggot feeding off the dying corpse of the
    sedevacantist movement in order to aggrandize your novelties of “lay
    governance.” It was not enough for you to dramatize and sensationalize
    the failures and evils that were already too disturbing in themselves,
    but you took advantage of these very evils of which you have been
    complaining in order to propagate your ideas and re-educate your
    target audience, the “affluent and educated Tradie minority.”

    Your ideas of “lay governance” have no basis in Sacred Scripture, holy
    Tradition, or ecclesiastical history. In fact, according to Canon
    2334, no. 2, you are incurring serious censures and are culpable of
    grievous sin by impeding the exercise of ecclesiastical jurisdiction
    either in the internal or external forum. Supplied jurisdiction is
    real ecclesiastical jurisdiction, and to assert the contrary is to
    deny the functionality of the whole sedevacantist movement. If Can.
    2334, no. 2, cannot be applied to supplied jurisdiction, which alone
    the sedevacantist clergy can claim, then it means such jurisdiction is
    not true and proper ecclesiastical jurisdiction, and thus all our
    absolutions have been invalid, and we have been attending cult-centers
    instead of Catholic chapels.
    Moreover, you and others are probably already excommunicated latae
    sententiae for conspiring against ecclesiastical authority (29 June
    1950, S. C. Conc.). Again, to deny the existence of ecclesiastical
    authority in the sedevacantist chapels, although existing only in
    supplied jurisdiction, is to admit that these chapels are only cult
    centers. Without ecclesiastical authority, without true jurisdiction,
    then it is all pointless, isn’t it? The Church has either failed or it
    is in the Novus Ordo: that is the ultimate conclusion to which your
    ideas lead.

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  6. These are merely ecclesiastical laws, you may argue, that have to be
    modified because of the unprecedented situation of the Church.
    However, the principles that formed the Code of Canon Law are still in
    force: the laity cannot usurp any ecclesiastical authority whatsoever.
    As I already wrote above, there is no precedent in ecclesiastical
    history for the idea of “lay governance” you are propagating. In fact,
    during the Octave of Christmas, the Church observes the Feast Day of
    St. Thomas of Canterbury, who courageously defended the rights of the
    Church against the impious intrusion of King Henry II and died as a
    martyr for that. If a King could not usurp sacrilegious autonomy from
    ecclesiastical authority, or “lay governance” if you will, how on
    earth do you think a board of several lay trustees could or should?
    Why, is it because of the calamities that have beset the Church today
    are you and your partisans to cry out together with King Henry, "Will
    no one rid me of this turbulent priest?”

    Although, it is indeed appropriate to establish legal assurances and
    safety measures to protect the faithful from such things as what
    happened at Alabama, Columbus, etc., your notion of “lay governance”
    is not exactly doing that. As you have claimed, a board of lay
    trustees ought to assist the Priest in lightening his burden when it
    comes to practical financial matters, and helping him in fiduciary
    affairs for which he may not be prepared. However, your “lay
    governance” as implemented at Fairfield is not doing that at all. The
    conspiracies, smear campaigns, and manifest signs of pertinacity and
    bad will on the part of those who have conspired with you have been
    exposed at CathInfo and in the comments in your Pristina blog. They
    are now known well by now.

    Ultimately, this is a spiritual problem, a manifestation of disorders
    rooted in tepidity, acedia, pride, etc.

    Mr. Toth, “what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and
    suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for
    his soul?" (Matt. 16:26). Is “lay governance” as you conceive it to be
    really worth the loss of your soul and those souls whom you are
    leading astray?

    A great athlete leaves behind him a legacy of excellence, an example
    of natural greatness for which future youth can aspire help entertain
    and attain to lofty goals in the natural order. You ask again and
    again, what legacy are Sanborn and Cekada leaving behind for the
    coming ages, yet you fail to realize that your own legacy shall be
    that of the wicked and slothful servant who buried his talent in the
    field, and thus failed to be of profit to his Master (Matt. 25:24-30).

    You attack Cekada for his sloppy scholarship, but where were you all
    these years? You had the intelligence and training to aptly defend the
    Church against the modernists, or to help the faithful discover the
    treasures of the faith and holy tradition. No matter how much you
    scorn and deride the CMRI, at least they are striving for the greater
    glory of God, at least they are saving souls.

    What fruits have you to show? You took it upon yourself to pronounce
    publicly what Catholics ought to do in these times, so tell me, with
    what credibility are you making such pronouncements? Where are the
    spiritual fruits you have sown and reaped with which you can assure
    the faithful that you have the authority to even write or say anything
    to them?

    As an anonymous commentator recently asked, how are you different than
    the incompetent and self-serving clergy whom you have repeated
    denounced and derided?

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  7. Ultimately, as I wrote before, this is a spiritual problem, a
    manifestation of disorders rooted in tepidity, acedia, pride, etc. You
    need a solid spiritual director to help you, because you have serious
    problems. Your eternal salvation is in peril, and all the more so
    because of the number of Catholics whose minds you have corrupted and
    infested.

    King Henry II made public penance for the wrongs he did against St.
    Thomas of Canterbury and for infringing upon the liberty and rights of
    the Church: will you also awake from this mirage of “lay control” and
    make appropriate penance in time? I hope and pray you and your
    partisans can do so.


    Sincerely,

    A poor sinful soul who asks for prayers

    P.S. If you had only been a priest, Mr. Toth, one can only wonder,
    considering all your education, experience and knowledge, what a great
    “sacramental vending-machine” you would have been! Just ripe for the
    lay boards to guide!

    ReplyDelete
  8. … had it not been for the scandals and misappropriation on the part of the clergy at St. Gertrude the Great, the mediocre formation of the CMRI clergy, and the culture of refined arrogance in the face of failure and schismatic cult-mentality of Most Holy Trinity Seminary. - Edwardo the anonymous

    Well said, Edwardo.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Edwardo? I think you need to guess again, or not at all...

    ReplyDelete
  10. Here is a reply to the post by Anonymous made Apr 25, 2012 at 1:23 PM.

    Mr Toth and Company, you say that the formation of the CMRI clergy is mediocre. Then why are you requesting a CMRI Priest to offer Mass? That is at the least inconsistent and at the worst...?

    ReplyDelete